The relevant posting I've replied is found here. My comment's waiting for moderation - and I think I'm more moderate than I have been in recent days.
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Hi Mike!
I have two simple questions, stemming from your material above, from one of your particular points:
m[ike]: when sin-without-jesus-leads-to-eternity-in-flames is the doctrine, none of the other doctrines - none of the “good parts of the gospel” - really matter anymore, do they?
ben: Who wouldn’t want a religion that requires no sacrifice and requires little more of its adherents than positive thinking?
Alrighty - for one thing, who determines the good parts of the God-Spell? Oops, I mean, Gospel.
Second of all, Christianity/the Bible is not entirely clear about what constitutes Sacrifice, and what kind of sacrifices are required. It seemed to me that the "Good News" of the Gospel was a free gift (I'm sure that's what I heard Billy preaching on the night I saw him in Philly), a priori from my temporal point of view, and that there was a "Once and for all" involved - until I discovered the same writer telling me that I had to "die" to this world to live with Jesus. Hm! Turns out the libertarians who cry "TANSTAAFL" have a more consistent truth than the Bible, from a certain point of view!!
Paul is one very peculiar, Non Divine and recognized "human authority" who was no more of a christian than you are, but one that every one of you turn to for "truth", sooner or later, recorded in a book. He is NOT Jesus, and never physically met Jesus, but who spent a good portion of his career trying to say, "This makes no difference, this is the same Gospel God gave unto me, himself!"
So then, how about I take another tack with you - I'll posit that recognizing "non-consistency" or "contradiction" does not equal "two aspects of the same truth" and I'll cite a biblical source for my observation: Jesus.
But first, let's put up some other biblical sources for context, since you'd provided them:
m[ike]: who says religion has to be this way? it was the pharisees that had put such a religious burden upon the people that jesus himself railed against. jesus said, “take my yoke upon you because my burden is *light*.”
ben: [D]on’t confuse “simple” for “easy”. Jesus said, “the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” (Matthew 7) Jesus says true religion requires sacrifice. (Matthew 16:24)
Matthew 12 - The Elephant In The Room
Jesus said, in Matthew 12: (context, verses 1 - 7)
6-"But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
7-"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent."
Here, Jesus is talking to Pharisees, who've condemned his disciples for picking and eating grain on the Sabbath. I don't see any reference to "true religion" at all, only "Compassion, instead of a necessary sacrifice to atone for something". And HOW does Compassion relate to "True Religion"? :P
But, in a strange and serendipitous arrangement, we have MORE in this chapter to look at.
Verses 24 - 29, Matthew 12:
24-But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons."
25-And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.
26-"If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?
27-"If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges.
28-"But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29-"Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house."
What's Jesus Saying to YOU here? I think he's trying to say that "a house cannot be divided against itself and stand", a "universal truth" from the horse's mouth, that doesn't even have an associated Old Testament scriptural basis. I think he's saying that division and schism leads to destruction.
But Wait! There's More
That's right! For, after Jesus puts the stinky ol' Pharisees in their place, he switches gears on us, and starts talking Damnation!
The Unpardonable Sin
30-"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters."
Cosmic balance? Yin, and Yang? Nope...
31-"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
32-"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."
And there's the Big Rub, of all of them. Here, we're given a Dire Warning, not to dare question that which has been revealed directly By The Spirit Of God... or face eternal punishment. And who, Praytell, Mr. Jesus, says when "the Spirit of God is Talking"? Will it be a Self Evident Thing (Actual Physical Miracles Happening In Front Of Your Eyes, like Jesus supposedly Did, but we don't see anymore), or will it be largely a matter of opinion, or will it be delivered from "On High" and revealed pretty much out of the blue, a "sign" without a "sign"?
A song occurs to me - "Trust and obey - for there's NO other way." If you sing that to yourself enough times.......
Words Reveal Character
33-"Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.
34-"You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart."
Jesus wasn't a psychologist - but yet he shows remarkable skill in describing human nature, from his relatively high horse. I think he illustrates, well, that people reveal the desires of their heart when they speak to something - how else could he "have known" about the Pharisees? see verse 25 again!
And yet - we have more than "a heart", as humans... I mean to say, we don't use "the heart" to figure out our tax returns, for example, and that same rationality we use to figure out mathematics we can apply to a written document, or a speech we have to deliver. No heart required, sometimes - although a little "heart" generally makes things more enjoyable to read!
Jesus didn't need to use his heart, OR the spirit of god to know what the Pharisees were up to, simply from what they were saying about him.
35-"The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.
36-"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
37-"For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Yin, and yang? I don't know, but I find it awful funny that now I can go to hell for what I didn't do, per se; only what I did or didn't say will make a difference now, which is a damn sight different than doing anything!
But Let's Not Take Matthew Alone!
Heck no! It's not like Matthew's alone in finding cosmic significance in this exchange! Let's see what Mark adds to it!
Mark 3:
22-The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons."
23-And He called them to Himself and began speaking to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan?
24-"If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25-"If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
26-"If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished!
27-"But no one can enter the strong man's house and plunder his property unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house.
28-"Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
29-but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--
30-because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."
Oh No! Mark actually gives a reason for why being eternally damned is required!! You can only be damned in eternity when you are *really* speaking against the True Spirit of God, since then you'd be calling an undeniably 'clean' spirit 'unclean' - and for that, you should roast in hell, according to Jesus. Forget all about all the truly terrible things you've done in life - they don't matter, all sins have been forgiven, but JUST CALL GOD'S SPIRIT UNCLEAN, and poof! He'll make sure his house stays United.
So! If you'd like a Yin and Yang, would you please explain to me: if I'm supposed to be joyful of being "free" of the wages of Sin, a Free Gift of the Gospel, why ought I to feel ANY fear of Hell? Could it be that my "freedom" is an elaborate hoax, like "You're free to wander the halls, but don't go into that particular room"? Could it be that *we're strong men* who've been Bound, for a reason?
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